Futures Forum: Knowle relocation: District Council challenged again

Further to this observation
Futures Forum: Knowle plans: 1970s building
and following the correspondence recorded on this entry
Futures Forum: "A truly green alternative to EDDC's proposal"
we have had this exchange:

From: PTwiss@eastdevon.gov.uk
To: Robin Fuller; MAllen@eastdevon.gov.uk; DAtkins@eastdevon.gov.uk; rbloxham@eastdevon.gov.uk; BBuxton@eastdevon.gov.uk; SBond@eastdevon.gov.uk; RBoote@eastdevon.gov.uk; PBowden@eastdevon.gov.uk; PBurrows@eastdevon.gov.uk; DButton@eastdevon.gov.uk; GChamberlain@eastdevon.gov.uk; DChapman@eastdevon.gov.uk; MChapman@eastdevon.gov.uk; IChubb@eastdevon.gov.uk; TCope@eastdevon.gov.uk; DCox@eastdevon.gov.uk; DCustanceBaker@eastdevon.gov.uk; ADent@eastdevon.gov.uk; paul@diviani.net; CDrew@eastdevon.gov.uk; VDuval-Steer@eastdevon.gov.uk; MGammell@eastdevon.gov.uk; SGazzard@eastdevon.gov.uk; RGiles@eastdevon.gov.uk; GGodbeer@eastdevon.gov.uk; PGraham@eastdevon.gov.uk; SHall@eastdevon.gov.uk; PHalse@eastdevon.gov.uk; THoward@eastdevon.gov.uk; MHowe@eastdevon.gov.uk; SHughes@eastdevon.gov.uk; DHull@eastdevon.gov.uk; JHumphreys@eastdevon.gov.uk; BIngham@eastdevon.gov.uk; JJeffery@eastdevon.gov.uk; SJones@eastdevon.gov.uk; SKerridge@eastdevon.gov.uk; DKey@eastdevon.gov.uk; JKnight@eastdevon.gov.uk; AMoulding@eastdevon.gov.uk; FNewth@eastdevon.gov.uk; joleary@eastdevon.gov.uk; HParr@eastdevon.gov.uk; GPook@eastdevon.gov.uk; KPotter@eastdevon.gov.uk; PSkinner@eastdevon.gov.uk; PStott@eastdevon.gov.uk; PSullivan@eastdevon.gov.uk; BTaylor@eastdevon.gov.uk; ithomas@eastdevon.gov.uk; GTroman@eastdevon.gov.uk; CWale@eastdevon.gov.uk; MWilliamson@eastdevon.gov.uk; TWood@eastdevon.gov.uk; EWragg@eastdevon.gov.uk; SWragg@eastdevon.gov.uk; CWright@eastdevon.gov.uk; TWright@eastdevon.gov.uk
CC: aliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; david.addis1942@btinternet.com; davidbarratt@btinternet.com; dawn.manleytownc@yahoo.co.uk; gliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; info@kingsdowntail.co.uk; jeff@turner72.orangehome.co.uk; john.hollick@uwclub.net; john@dysonz.com; kelvinandsuedent@gmail.com; maggiebaldwin79@yahoo.co.uk; mary.jolly2@btinternet.com; patandjack42@hotmail.co.uk; simon_sheelagh_simon@tiscali.co.uk; stuart.hughes@devon.gov.uk; town.clerk@sidmouth.gov.uk; wootans@aol.com

Subject: RE: Serious questions over size of modern offices at Knowle
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 08:07:06 +0000

Dear Mr Fuller,

At the risk of repeating myself from previous correspondence but for the benefit of those not included in it; no solution has been put forward as to where and how EDDC would operate during a major refurbishment or how it would be funded without disadvantaging all residents in East Devon. Sale of the old hotel building would not be sufficient to cover the costs of upgrading and refurbishment of the new building and would be a far less attractive proposition to developers and prospective purchasers of property for a number of reasons, not least having a significant size employment site on their door step.

Retro fitting to the same energy efficiency levels as a new building would require further major construction work and is simply not a practical or financially viable option. Moving to a new energy efficient building would be cost neutral to the tax payers of East Devon, refurbishing office accommodation at Knowle even with the sale of other parts of the Knowle campus would not be cost neutral.

The decision to relocate (using evidence provided by highly experienced and qualified professionals in their relevant field) has already been made. It now remains to find a suitable site within East Devon once all options have been fully considered.

As in our previous correspondence we will have to agree to disagree on this issue and I have nothing further to add to what has already been said.

Regards

Phil

Phil Twiss

EDDC Councillor

Honiton St Michael's ward, Portfolio holder, Corporate Services

Telephone: 01404 891327

E Mail: PTwiss@eastdevon.gov.uk

Twitter: @philtwiss

P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

From: Robin Fuller
Sent: 15 August 2013 19:58
To: Cllr Phillip Twiss; Cllr Michael Allen; Cllr David Atkins; Cllr R Bloxham; Cllr B Buxton; Cllr S Bond; Cllr R W Boote; Cllr P N Bowden; Cllr Peter Burrows; Cllr Derek Button; Cllr Geoffrey Chamberlain; Cllr David Chapman; Cllr Madeleine Chapman; Cllr I R Chubb; Cllr Trevor Cope; Cllr David Cox; Cllr Deborah Custance Baker; Cllr Alan Dent; paul@diviani.net; Cllr Mrs Christine Drew; Cllr Ms V B A Duval-Steer; Cllr Martin Gammell; Cllr Steven Gazzard; Cllr Roger Giles; Cllr G S Godbeer; Cllr Mrs Pat Graham; Cllr S Hall; Cllr Peter Halse; Cllr Tony Howard; Cllr Mike Howe; Cllr Stuart Hughes; Cllr Douglas Hull; Jill Humphreys; Cllr Ben Ingham; Cllr John Jeffery; Sandy Jones; Cllr Sheila Kerridge; Cllr David Key; Cllr J A Knight; Cllr Andrew Moulding; Cllr Mrs F I Newth; Cllr John O'Leary; Cllr Mrs Helen Parr; Cllr Geoff Pook; Cllr K C Potter; Cllr Philip Skinner; Cllr Mrs Pauline Stott; Cllr Peter Sullivan; Cllr Mrs Brenda Taylor; Cllr I Thomas; Cllr G M Troman; Cllr Christopher Wale; Cllr M Williamson; Cllr T J R Wood; Cllr Mrs E E Wragg; Cllr Stephen Wragg; Cllr Claire Wright; Cllr Thomas Wright
Cc: aliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; david.addis1942@btinternet.com; davidbarratt@btinternet.com; dawn.manleytownc@yahoo.co.uk; gliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; info@kingsdowntail.co.uk; jeff@turner72.orangehome.co.uk; john.hollick@uwclub.net; john@dysonz.com; Kelvin Dent; maggiebaldwin79@yahoo.co.uk; mary.jolly2@btinternet.com; patandjack42@hotmail.co.uk; simon_sheelagh_simon@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Hughes; town.clerk@sidmouth.gov.uk; wootans@aol.com

Subject: RE: Serious questions over size of modern offices at Knowle

Cllr Twiss

You have dismissed my report using emotive language like ‘presumption’ and ‘guess work’ when I have included a full description of rigorous methods and given data which were calculated by an accredited architect using EDDC’s own plans.

You do not indicate by what means and with what methods EDDC’s consultants have arrived at a different answer. Do you have a description of their methods and a detailed breakdown of the data supplied by Lister?

The government advises Local Councils to refurbish rather than rebuild, as it is a better use of taxpayers’ money. An important plank of your argument for rejecting that option is the fact that the modern buildings will not meet the space requirements of EDDC. Careful measurements suggest that your argument is incorrect.

As regards the greater efficiency of new buildings, that would not apply if your modern offices were properly retro-fitted to modern standards. Your published estimates on refurbishment do not specify refurbishment of just those buildings which you would require; they seem intentionally to mislead by costing the refurbishment of all of Knowle – which puts a biased slant on what should be a genuinely fair and open discussion.

I believe that your own plans (which I include with my report) speak for themselves. A visual check suggests that more than a quarter of Knowle comprises buildings just 30-35 years old. I have underpinned that visual impression with carefully collected real data, which confirm my belief.

We can only weigh the merits of my data against Lister’s data if we can understand exactly what Lister have measured and how. At the moment, we have only various opinions that Lister are right.

Robin Fuller

Subject: RE: Serious questions over size of modern offices at Knowle
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:57:00 +0000

All,

I have been in correspondence with Mr Fuller on and off since February of 2013 concerning his estimate of available floor space at Knowle and would not want you to be misled by the presumption that the floor space in the "modern" is "40% greater than the figure used by EDDC when it dismissed options for refurbishment of modern Knowle buildings"; it isn't.

EDDC have relied on the measurements taken for the DEC and those by Thomas Lister who have both agreed . EDDC Property Services are also content that the area advised is correct.

Excluding where EDDC staff would be housed and the major disruption to services during any refurbishment, together with the source of funding for it and notwithstanding all the discussions about measurement and accuracy, the real issue is that the existing Knowle buildings are not fit for purpose and that a full refurbishment is required if they are to be.

This includes reconfiguration of the internal layouts to remove cellular isolated offices to an open plan integral easy accessible fully DDA compliant environment. The cost of this refurbishment work, including the provision of the additional floor area, is estimated to be in excess of not only the independently estimated land asset values but also the further substantial costs that EDDC would have been required to pay out over the next 20 years for annual running costs for staying at Knowle as compared to a new purpose built office. A refurbished 1980's office block does not even come close in energy efficiency terms to a new purpose built building.

I would not want guess work such as this detracting from the core effort of providing EDDC with a new energy and cost efficient office for the benefit of all in East Devon and remain completely bemused as to why some tax payers would want EDDC to waste their hard earned money on refurbishment when a better financial option is clearly the way forward.

Regards

Phil

Phil Twiss

EDDC Councillor

Honiton St Michael's ward, Portfolio holder, Corporate Services

Telephone: 01404 891327

E Mail: PTwiss@eastdevon.gov.uk

Twitter: @philtwiss

P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

From: Robin Fuller
Sent: 15 August 2013 16:06
To: Cllr Michael Allen; Cllr David Atkins; Cllr R Bloxham; Cllr B Buxton; Cllr S Bond; Cllr R W Boote; Cllr P N Bowden; Cllr Peter Burrows; Cllr Derek Button; Cllr Geoffrey Chamberlain; Cllr David Chapman; Cllr Madeleine Chapman; Cllr I R Chubb; Cllr Trevor Cope; Cllr David Cox; Cllr Deborah Custance Baker; Cllr Alan Dent; paul@diviani.net; Cllr Mrs Christine Drew; Cllr Ms V B A Duval-Steer; Cllr Martin Gammell; Cllr Steven Gazzard; Cllr Roger Giles; Cllr G S Godbeer; Cllr Mrs Pat Graham; Cllr S Hall; Cllr Peter Halse; Cllr Tony Howard; Cllr Mike Howe; Cllr Stuart Hughes; Cllr Douglas Hull; Jill Humphreys; Cllr Ben Ingham; Cllr John Jeffery; Sandy Jones; Cllr Sheila Kerridge; Cllr David Key; Cllr J A Knight; Cllr Andrew Moulding; Cllr Mrs F I Newth; Cllr John O'Leary; Cllr Mrs Helen Parr; Cllr Geoff Pook; Cllr K C Potter; Cllr Philip Skinner; Cllr Mrs Pauline Stott; Cllr Peter Sullivan; Cllr Mrs Brenda Taylor; Cllr I Thomas; Cllr G M Troman; Cllr Phillip Twiss; Cllr Christopher Wale; Cllr M Williamson; Cllr T J R Wood; Cllr Mrs E E Wragg; Cllr Stephen Wragg; Cllr Claire Wright; Cllr Thomas Wright
Cc: aliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; david.addis1942@btinternet.com; davidbarratt@btinternet.com; dawn.manleytownc@yahoo.co.uk; gliverton@members.eastdevon.gov.uk; info@kingsdowntail.co.uk; jeff@turner72.orangehome.co.uk; john.hollick@uwclub.net; john@dysonz.com; Kelvin Dent; maggiebaldwin79@yahoo.co.uk; mary.jolly2@btinternet.com; patandjack42@hotmail.co.uk; simon_sheelagh_simon@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Hughes; town.clerk@sidmouth.gov.uk; wootans@aol.com

Subject: Serious questions over size of modern offices at Knowle

To all EDDC Councillors and Sidmouth Town Councillors

I attach a very brief paper (knowle floorspace paper 2.doc) to draw your attention to what I consider to be serious flaws in EDDC's argument that the space in the modern, purpose-built offices at Knowle is insufficient for EDDC's future needs.

I believe the floorspace in the modern offices is 40% greater than the figure used by EDDC when it dismissed options for refurbishment of modern Knowle buildings.

I ask you to read the paper and consider for yourselves whether EDDC's proposals to move continue to make sense. I don't think they do.

Robin Fuller